tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3092279688859602255.post7703128273088124694..comments2023-10-05T03:05:34.846-07:00Comments on From atop the Branches of the Giving Tree...: Conrad Murray's Phone Records--An Analysisgatorgirl277http://www.blogger.com/profile/01700536873177629282noreply@blogger.comBlogger12125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3092279688859602255.post-2746425317658020102011-03-17T22:30:23.799-07:002011-03-17T22:30:23.799-07:00Please check out my new blog that kind of ties int...Please check out my new blog that kind of ties into this blog. I was going to post it as a comment but it became too long!gatorgirl277https://www.blogger.com/profile/01700536873177629282noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3092279688859602255.post-52068979228290856932011-03-17T14:59:29.682-07:002011-03-17T14:59:29.682-07:00Oh June, meant to mention something about MJ not e...Oh June, meant to mention something about MJ not eating--normally if one is having surgery you would not eat 12 hours before, however, I doubt Murray would have enforced such a rule with Michael. You also should not eat so long after being sedated (depends on the type of sedation). That means Michael would have never been able to eat basically which certainly would not be okay.gatorgirl277https://www.blogger.com/profile/01700536873177629282noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3092279688859602255.post-42529136755232530292011-03-17T11:08:02.894-07:002011-03-17T11:08:02.894-07:00Thank you for sharing your personal story June, an...Thank you for sharing your personal story June, and I am so sorry to hear about your father. You are right, they are not awake and cannot awaken to know that nature is calling. Someone ill like your father, it is completely understandable that such a method would need to be in place but in a healthy man who was not terminally ill and when awake knew good and well when he needed to use the restroom, this being on him signifies a serious problem.<br /><br />I am not sure if other condom catheters were found--I have yet to see any evidence of other catheters being found (IV catheters were found, though, as reported in the autopsy report). I am also not sure if the catheter was actually attached to a foley bag or not, either, given urine apparently was contained in a "closed bottle"--now, I am not sure what is meant by "closed bottle" but I certainly cannot tie a bottle to being anything like a foley bag. Why was Murray keeping urine in a bottle, anyway? Why was this not flushed?<br /><br />What Michael was really begging for was a way to help him sleep like so many do each night, not the drug itself, but most people fail to realize this. Lee should know--she tried multiple methods to help him sleep and they failed (I wish we knew the time frame on this, I am guessing April). Now, one should keep in mind Lee specializes in holistic medicine so her methods were probably, how do I put it, not the most effective. This may have pushed Michael to ask for propofol after trying Lee's methods that failed him. I know Lee gave him IV vitamin C and had him inhale nebulized glutathione. I really do not see the effectiveness of either treatments, especially giving vitamin C intravenously because when taken orally you get rid of what you do not need by releasing the vitamin in your waste. I do not like anything being given IV unless necessary and vitamin C I see no reason to give IV, certainly not in Michael. Don't get me wrong, I do like some holistic treatments for certain ailments but I think perhaps Lee takes it too far.<br /><br />This brings me back to why was Murray ordering propofol on April 6th (and I think again on April 28th). Michael supposedly did not even receive propofol from Murray until early to mid May and Michael asked Lee about the medication on April 12th (Easter). I want to know why Murray ordered this when it seems Michael had not asked him for it and why did he order so much of it? He did not order IV lidocaine, however, until June. Something does not make sense.gatorgirl277https://www.blogger.com/profile/01700536873177629282noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3092279688859602255.post-26436569313934726622011-03-17T05:19:48.942-07:002011-03-17T05:19:48.942-07:00Reading your further comments, and I too hate to d...Reading your further comments, and I too hate to dwell on that catheter business; here's the thing: my father died from terminal cancer; during his last days he had a condom catheter as he was on morphine and completely "out". That catheter alone should speak volumes of common sense. The person is not awake to relieve himself, period. Question: were unused condom catheters found in the room, which would demonstrate their nightly usage, as Michael slept from the benzos, etc.? And I'm tired of hearing that Michael "begged" for propofol, both Murray and Nurse Lee (coincidentally) used those words. IMO one can't "beg" for anything if one is knocked out in a comatose state.junehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02435785999975014629noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3092279688859602255.post-25920578599017833952011-03-16T22:23:27.727-07:002011-03-16T22:23:27.727-07:00Hey meigadas! :-)
Yes, you are right, antidepress...Hey meigadas! :-)<br /><br />Yes, you are right, antidepressants can amplify the drowsiness. He had the trazadone but I do not think he took this regularly. It was from April, he'd taken 12 tablets since then and was to take two a night as needed for insomnia. But, Murray supposedly giving diazepam and midazolam and nothing happening? Not buying that. Especially midazolam, that is potent! Murray said himself Michael slept fine on midazolam and lorazepam the night before--I think he really slit his own throat with that comment. An MD estimated the amount of lorazepam in Michael's blood equated to him being given 7-12 mg--that's huge for anything but especially insomnia, too huge! This is all crazy, too crazy to all be random acts of death, in my opinion.gatorgirl277https://www.blogger.com/profile/01700536873177629282noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3092279688859602255.post-4799180688439910822011-03-16T22:16:01.430-07:002011-03-16T22:16:01.430-07:00Hey Monica!
Wow--interesting points! As for the ...Hey Monica!<br /><br />Wow--interesting points! As for the catheter being used to remove traces of the drug, hmm, it makes me think about Murray possibly trying to dilute the amount of drugs in his blood by over-hydrating him with saline (which would then led to the urine output, etc.). I don't know how well this would work, though, concerning urine output but it could certainly affect how the lab results came back during the toxicology screenings. I wish an expert would hop in here and maybe expand further on your thoughts since I am speaking rather speculatively. I know one of the doctors who testified at the hearing explained that the results were likely under-reported for both lorazepam and propofol from an array of reasons. I wish I had quotes for this but do not at the moment. The one thing I just cannot shake from my head is Murray having the condom catheter in the first place for a able-bodied man. If mobility was a problem from the IV then Michael could have used a bedside urinal. <br /><br />In case people are not sure what a beside urinal is, here is a photo of one:<br /><br />http://www.allegromedical.com/personal-care-c532/plasic-urinal-patient-bedside-urinal-p192339.html<br /><br />But, to go to such extremes as to put a condom catheter on him at least tells me he had plans to over-sedate Michael, whether it was before that night, I am not sure. What I would like to know is was this set-up used prior to that night or not? A normal male adult who is being so sedated he is losing his urinary control is an adult who is also likely losing his ability to control his own breathing, too. Murray had to have known this, it is common medical sense.<br /><br />Michael was such a shy man and I hate to have to talk about matters like this but I try to justify it by saying it is being done to try and find out what really happened. Not knowing is like a knife in the heart to so many. At least it is being done as respectfully as possible.<br /><br />As for the defense--who knows. I would think they have experts who are looking at all avenues for them, even avenues that are bullocks. I cannot imagine them not trying to cover several angles and not matter how much we try and find out being the public, the defense will always know more because Murray knows more than anyone what really happened that morning and what his intent really was and why he did the things he did.gatorgirl277https://www.blogger.com/profile/01700536873177629282noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3092279688859602255.post-16429491426395379922011-03-16T21:54:39.757-07:002011-03-16T21:54:39.757-07:00Hi Skeptikos! Am I looking for anything specific ...Hi Skeptikos! Am I looking for anything specific on that person's YT channel? I see they are a beLIEver. :-/gatorgirl277https://www.blogger.com/profile/01700536873177629282noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3092279688859602255.post-67238057779296016712011-03-16T21:52:32.516-07:002011-03-16T21:52:32.516-07:00Hey June!
Great points!
You said, "So, IMO,...Hey June!<br /><br />Great points!<br /><br />You said, "So, IMO, Michael was "out" when Murray induced the propofol."<br /><br />I, too, have thought this and apparently one of the witnesses at the hearing, an MD, thought so, too, at least, that Michael should have been sedated on the lorazepam (his guess is Michael received somewhere between 7 and 12 mg, I think). That being said--why would Murray give ANY propofol--not just any but a large amount to him, an amount seen in surgery patients? That is just sickening to imagine. I cannot go beyond thinking--malice. I guess if I were Murray I'd want to blame anyone else for doing something so cruel and heinous, too. Too bad the courts do not see it as cruel or heinous. <br /><br />:-(gatorgirl277https://www.blogger.com/profile/01700536873177629282noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3092279688859602255.post-37120888411367157102011-03-16T13:29:34.680-07:002011-03-16T13:29:34.680-07:00Nikki said: " It seems this should be a rare...Nikki said: " It seems this should be a rare event--perhaps seen in the sedated ICU patient (who would be intubated). It does not seem someone who was only wanting to sleep should have such a high blood level."<br /><br />Nikki, I remember that the use of antidepressants in combination with benzodiazepines can potentiate the drowsiness... if that's true, MJ that night had to be sleeping much before the fatal dose of propofol , then lorazepam high dose and repeated doses of other benzodiazepines don´t make sense...well, nothing makes sense in this crazyness<br /><br />Thank you for this article.meigadashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11697866464386991949noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3092279688859602255.post-43559510270223203992011-03-12T07:54:52.756-08:002011-03-12T07:54:52.756-08:00I am so grateful to have this clear and intelligen...I am so grateful to have this clear and intelligent analysis. I couldn't help but think from the beginning (after the autopsy report) that the catheter would prove to be positive for the prosecution. I'm glad you brought that up. I did hear some speculation on the radio during the preliminary hearing. Since I have little medical knowledge I wasn't sure if it could be true. This speculative commentary was eluding to the "fact" that the prosecution was positioning itself to present that CM was in some way attempting to "remove" traces of the drug levels in Michael's body via the catheter (but this type of catheter?) Is this even possible? It would certainly shed light on CM's intentions, thoughts, etc., as well as true/accurate dosing (since straight answers are so hard to come by). Also, I just hate the way Michael was supposedly found; man, absolutely nothing was sacred for Michael.<br /><br />Even though I want this open, online information, at times I wonder if it could be being perused by the defense. You must admit, this is all very strategically relevant in terms of examining every angle and possibility.<br />L.o.v.e.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04018203809650789700noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3092279688859602255.post-32597207308857172662011-03-11T14:22:18.671-08:002011-03-11T14:22:18.671-08:00Hi June, will get to your commentary soon!
I want...Hi June, will get to your commentary soon!<br /><br />I wanted to add, according to Lexicomp the therapeutic range for lorazepam is 50-240 ng/mL. Just different numbers, most interesting is it lowers the therapeutic range to 240 ng/mL down from 300 ng/mL from the other source. So, anything above 240 ng/mL would be considered to be toxic, essentially. <br /><br />For anxiety and sedation it says one should take orally 1-10 mg/day in 2-3 divided doses with the usual dose being 2-6 mg/day in divided doses. This would be to keep a nice steady level going throughout the day for something like anxiety. <br /><br />The IV formulation of lorazepam should only be used for status epilepticus, amnesia and sedation--not for insomnia. <br /><br />For an ICU patient being sedated the highest recommended dose would be 0.1 mg/kg/hr or about 6 mg/hr for a 60 kg patient. I figure this would render a level higher than 60 ng/mL because of the continuous infusion of the drug.<br /><br />I wish someone could give us a scenario on when one should have a level of nearly 170 ng/mL in their body. It seems this should be a rare event--perhaps seen in the sedated ICU patient (who would be intubated). It does not seem someone who was only wanting to sleep should have such a high blood level.gatorgirl277https://www.blogger.com/profile/01700536873177629282noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3092279688859602255.post-30770928348491866402011-03-08T20:41:24.107-08:002011-03-08T20:41:24.107-08:00Nikki, you ask for comments, so I will give you so...Nikki, you ask for comments, so I will give you some. I've concluded that Michael did "sleep" from the excessive benzos and other junk Murray gave him; hence the mattress pad and condom catheter, person is "out"; can't get up to relieve himself. Big bottle of urine found at the scene. So, IMO, Michael was "out" when Murray induced the propofol. I've said it here and on other blogs; Murray was covering with the phone calls, no doubt about it. I hadn't thought about the email from the insurance guy being the catalyst for murder, but perhaps so. As to why Murray didn't text AEG that Michael was in trouble, maybe AEG already knew. Yes, Murray had to sleep at some point, where? At Alvarez' apartment? Or at Michael's house while Michael slept. Didn't Kai Chase say she routinely made dinner meals for Michael and Murray, and questioned why the meals she prepared the evening of June 24th were still in the frig, not eaten? If Murray had been giving Michael prop for five to six weeks prior, wouldn't Michael have not been able to eat prior thereto? I was under anesthesia for a procedure and was instructed not to eat for 12 hours prior, risk of throwup! There's no easy way to say this, but did Murray really give Michael prop for 5-6 weeks prior? Or did he give it to him all at once the morning of June 25th on top of the benzos while Michael was already asleep? How else would there be enough prop in Michael to anesthetize a whale. And so, the question remains, why did Michael have to die and who was involved? There were so many scurrilous characters surrounding Michael within the last year of his life, we may never know, but it was all greed, corruption, manipulation resulting in the death of an innocent man who could trust no one, as they all had a piece of him. <br /><br />Nikki, you have really called it correctly here, and I hope someone else, more medically qualified than myself, will post in more detail than I have. Oh, and by the way, I also do not believe the story of Michael's kids being "off limits" to him every night while Murray wielded his magic. I hope you get some good feedback here.junehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02435785999975014629noreply@blogger.com